New Rules, New Mindsets: Beyond the Headlines of Sexual Harassment Regulations

In this episode of The Inclusive Edge, I discuss with Victoria Dale, (Victoria@inclusion365.co.uk, www.inclusion365.co.uk) the importance of preventing sexual harassment in the workplace, especially in light of new regulations coming into effect on October 26th. 

We discuss the shift from reactive to proactive prevention and practical advice for organisations to stay compliant and create safer environments.

Key Topics:

• Why sexual harassment prevention is still crucial
• Our personal experiences with harassment in the workplace “bra pinging” “wolf whistles” and “bump touching” 
• What the October 26th legislative changes mean for businesses
• Next steps for leaders to ensure harassment-free workplaces

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If you would like to be a guest on the show reach out to contact@andreajaneconsultancy 

Transcript

Andrea Derbyshire (00:10)
Welcome back to the inclusive edge, the power of diversity, a new podcast dedicated to helping leaders and HR professionals create fair, diverse, inclusive and dynamic workplaces where everybody can thrive. Each episode, we will be exploring practical strategies for tackling workplace equality challenges and building an inclusive culture. We'll be sharing real world examples, tips that you can take away and action and insights.

and providing you with some of the guidance that you need to harness the power of diversity and drive meaningful change to unlock the full potential of your team and create a workplace where every voice is heard and you can gain the edge you need to make inclusion a reality. I'm your host Andrea Derbyshire and today for episode two we're diving into a crucial topic, preventing sexual harassment in the workplace.

And joining me today is a very special guest, Victoria Dale from Inclusion 365. Victoria brings a wealth of background experience, both from a equality, diversity and inclusion perspective, and also the HR side of things. Welcome, Victoria. we jump into the details, I think it'd be helpful and interesting for our listeners just to hear a little bit of background about you, Victoria. So if you want to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you and how we first met.

Victoria Dale (01:30)
Yeah, sure. Hi, Andrea, and thank you for inviting me onto the second podcast. Really excited, forward to our conversation on a really, really important topic. yeah, have 20 years experience within equality, diversity and inclusion. I started off in the public sector and local government where I led on ED &I, providing consultancy training and specifically around equality impact assessments, helping organizations understand the impact of their decisions.

when they're introducing new policies, important changes in the organisation, thinking about the impact it has on different groups in terms of eliminating discrimination, advancing equality and fostering good relations. also during that time when I was working in the public sector, I worked for London Development Agency, which was the mayor of London's economic development body. And there again, quite a lot of experience around ED and I.

understanding the barriers that Londoners face in terms of setting up a business, growing a business and also barriers to the labour market. So my experience is in terms of sort of looking at kind of issues in the workplace, but also actually the kind of wider ED &I conversation around that people face in society that's kind of giving me that holistic understanding. And I've been self-employed for coming up to nine years actually next month.

Andrea Derbyshire (02:51)
Wow.

Victoria Dale (02:51)
And yeah, it's been it's been really interesting journey. I've been fortunate to work with some amazing employers across different sectors from like working with NHS trusts like you also with universities, higher education and also professional services, media, retail, etc. Also lot of male dominated environments too. understand some of the challenges as well that employers face around, know, creating a safe, inclusive culture and some of the barriers around, you know,

particularly for women sort of feeling not safe to speak up, which I know we'll be diving into. And yeah, it was quite a number of years that we met. And I think it was through the diversity and inclusion leaders Facebook group. And then through my own sort of happy HR manager's Facebook group and just been, yeah, just supporting each other. I think I've been an administrator moderator for the group and also just supporting each other on LinkedIn. We've had various conversations over the years. So yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (03:31)
That's right.

That's fantastic. Thank you, Victoria. It's really funny looking back at our shared passion and experiencing the equality, diversity and inclusion world has led to us connecting and we've had so many good conversations. I'm really happy to be here today to talk to you about one of the most important issues in any workplace. So let's start with why the topic of preventing sexual harassment is still so relevant today. Why do you think Victoria that

Victoria Dale (03:57)
Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (04:15)
preventing sexual harassment remains such a critical issue, even with all of the progress that we've seen over the years in workplace policies and increased awareness.

Victoria Dale (04:26)
Yeah, so yes, really good question. you know, despite there being more awareness, more people speaking up, it still feels as if, you know, there's a lot of issues within the workplace and being brushed under the carpet. You know, we hear people, you know, out in the media, in the press about their experiences, particularly for some very well known companies, very well known businesses where women have spoken up and men actually as well.

of being harassed, being treated unfairly because upon the grounds of their sex or gender. if we don't address it, if we don't preempt when sexual harassment is likely to arise, then obviously it's gonna make feel less safe at work, it's gonna result in increased turnover, it's gonna impact on people's sickness, substance, wellbeing, and it's not really gonna be a very nice, clearly not a very nice place to work, people are not gonna feel safe. And that will have a knock on effect about how they feel.

Andrea Derbyshire (04:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria Dale (05:21)
when they go home, that Sunday night dread, you know, not feeling fully engaged at work because, you know, they don't feel valued, they don't feel they can be the whole self.

Andrea Derbyshire (05:32)
Yeah, I think that's so important because it doesn't just affect people in the workplace, they do take it home to their families and their life outside of work and it can have a really damaging, a long lasting impact on people's mental health and their confidence etc. So that's why it's just so important that we have this conversation and try to make sure that nobody has to go through those experiences and feeling unsafe in work.

Victoria Dale (05:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely, and we know from experience that often these things don't really arise until it's too late. You know, when people kind of raise a grievance, they go down the formal route and then that involves a lot of people, a lot of time and they end up losing talent and money and it clearly sort of damages their reputation but has such a huge impact on that individual as well having to go through that process. Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (06:06)
Uh-huh.

yeah

Yeah, yeah, really important

points. Thank you, Victoria. So can we just shift gears a little bit and talk about our own experiences? So I think it's important for listeners to hear from people like you and I who've been involved in dealing with grievances and the workplace that involves allegations of sexual harassment. And we know it's not always easy to deal with those situations. It can be really complex, but it's

really important for us to understand how it impacts in the workplace. So I'd love to hear from you Victoria if you're happy to share, is there anything, any experience that you've had in your working life that has perhaps shaped your perspective on how to address sexual and prevent sexual harassment in the workplace that you could share with our listeners?

Victoria Dale (07:10)
Yeah,

of course. Yeah. And so a number of years ago when I was employed, I had a meeting at work with a supplier who was delivering some training for us. And he arrived by car. He used our underground car parks. When our meeting finished, I showed him out to the car park as it was quite complicated how to kind of get out there. It was right in the centre of London. And at that time, there was some construction workers doing some building work in the car park.

Andrea Derbyshire (07:32)
Yeah.

Victoria Dale (07:37)
around the car park and as we were passing through the car park I was subjected to some wolf whistles and explicit sexual comments and the supplier who I had the meeting with asked you know if I was alright it was awkward I didn't you know it made me feel uncomfortable and very self-conscious it was horrible and but thankfully I had a very supportive manager who

Andrea Derbyshire (07:44)
Really.

Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Dale (07:59)
went straight to the person in charge of managing the building's work contracts, who then soon after called me to arrange to speak in person. They came speak to me in person soon after to explain, you know, it's probably a few days later, the matter had been addressed and the people who were making those inappropriate behaviors had been spoken to. But that was that. So from my memory, there was no kind of further action taken. And for me, that experience made a mark on me, you know, wanting to ensure that no one is subject to such.

treatment, whether it is verbal or as we know, know, can be written as well, can be behavioral. But that having a word with the person making those comments to me was not enough. needs to be more than that. It's not just a quick word and that's it. They need to kind of learn the impact of their words. You know, and that's why I think this new duty will really force employers to think ahead rather than when it's too late and they're having to

Andrea Derbyshire (08:41)
Yeah.

Victoria Dale (08:55)
you know, sort of the individuals having to go down a grievance route. And that's why I'm so passionate, yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (09:00)
I'm really, yeah,

yeah. you for sharing that. really sorry to hear that you've had that experience. Can you share with the listeners how did that make you feel at the time?

Victoria Dale (09:11)
It just made me feel, I don't know, just made me feel awkward like I was on, I don't know, it's weird, like I was on show, like very self-conscious and I didn't ask for that. And it has happened to me before outside of work too. As you probably know, this is McKean, I love going out running and I've lost my times where I've been subject to wolf whistling as I'm just running on, know, just doing my daily, you know, doing my run, going out for a run.

Andrea Derbyshire (09:29)
Yes

Victoria Dale (09:39)
get wolf whistles and cars and people passing by, you know, not all the time, but it's yeah, it's just frustrating. You know, you think times have moved on. think, I mean, that particular example, it was construction workers, think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think there has been more awareness in the construction sector where you have predominantly males that working on building sites and, you know, subject to wolf whistles that...

Andrea Derbyshire (09:48)
Yeah.

Victoria Dale (10:07)
I think to some degree it has been addressed. I don't see it as much now, but yeah, it does make me feel really uncomfortable.

Andrea Derbyshire (10:14)
Yeah, I just think it's so powerful when we open up and we share these experiences as people don't realise how many women have had instances and experiences like this. And for me also it's something that is quite close to my heart and hits home. I'll just share a little story from my early experience when I was my first HR career job. So was around 22 stroke 23.

I was studying for the CIPD day and I was asked to go to a recruitment away day in Warrington. It was a whole day session where we were planning and practicing recruitment interviews and we were doing some group work where we were planning out the panel questions and a lot of the groups, were a mix of ages. I was one of the younger, more inexperienced people in the room.

and in the group I made a suggestion for one of the interview questions and there was an older male in the group, he must have been in his 50s and as soon as I spoke which was the first suggestion that I'd made that I recall in the group work, he said okay blondie and then he just promptly leaned over and blatantly pinged my barstrap and the other people that were in the group they all just laughed and I just went

really red, felt really embarrassed, undermined and humiliated. I I would think I was just in shock as well, I didn't know what to do or say and like looking back I would deal with it a lot differently now but yeah it was just tolerated, nobody seemed to think that that was unusual or inappropriate or unacceptable behavior and it just yeah.

Victoria Dale (11:43)
Yeah.

Yeah,

thank you for sharing that's awful and shocking and yeah, it's, I guess it's when you put in that situation and no one's challenging it, it's, kind of makes things worse. You feel like you can't speak up. Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (12:10)
Yeah,

yeah. But how important the role of bystanders is as well because there other people in that room that could have said that that's not acceptable or stop but they didn't. Thank you. It was a long time ago so it was, I'm 47 now so was like about 25 years ago but it's still something that I can recall crystal clear because I remember how I felt at that time and how disempowered.

Victoria Dale (12:13)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm sorry to hear you went through that.

Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (12:40)
akso vulnerable, really.

Victoria Dale (12:41)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been in sort of other situations where I kind of think back and actually, should I have challenged it? obviously the example I gave was very specific, was years ago when I was working at EDU and I, the director in my team was chatting away, I was feeling quite vulnerable because...

I had issues with my line manager and he was chatting to me and he just put his hands on my leg. I was pregnant at the time as well, I he touched my bump, but it was just, he didn't respect boundaries. I remember chatting to a friend quite a number of years ago, another DI consultant, and we were just talking about how the Me Too movement gave a lot of women a voice and made them more aware about actually this is not on, this is not right.

Andrea Derbyshire (13:30)
Yeah, yeah. There have been a lot of high profile cases quite recently in the news as well that just shows really that it isn't an issue of the past, these things are still happening. So it's very much still a problem today and there are a lot of cases where people have come forward but sometimes years after the event to speak up about what happened to them in the workplace was unacceptable.

Victoria Dale (13:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (13:58)
Are there any other recent cases in the news that have resonated with you? Victoria, at all.

Victoria Dale (14:02)
Yeah,

so the recent Harrods scandal that was in the news, think obviously still ongoing, you you're seeing more women come forward and speak about their experiences. I mean, this has been going on for decades. I don't know how long, like 20 plus years or maybe more than that actually, sorry. It was like from the bit of the 1980s or something. Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (14:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's really large profile case with

lots of people involved.

Victoria Dale (14:30)
Yeah, I mean, so it's been horrific to read how complaints have been covered up, they've been brushed under the carpet, they've obviously had HR, probably been told to shut up and not say anything. think at one point, believe, or some other news channel tried to kind of investigate, but I think they got brushed off. And it kind of shows the power dynamics with Ahmed Al-Fayez being sort of the head of Harrah's, the owner.

probably created, you know, he was in the limelight as well. He was quite a, what's the word, know, memorable sort of, yeah, powerful, you know, painted this glossy picture in the news and the press when he was out and about. very disturbing, very different reality, you know, what goes on behind the scenes and yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (15:05)
powerful.

Yeah, and what do you think that says about the culture of silence in some workplaces and why people don't speak up?

Victoria Dale (15:26)
I think they're afraid of the repercussions if they speak up. You know, thinking actually, will it affect my chances of being promoted? Will it affect my position I might get? I might get made redundant. might get managed out as such from the organisation because they've spoken up. I might miss out on a stretching assignment. But we know that that can damage lives, their families and reputations.

Andrea Derbyshire (15:55)
Yeah, it's such a difficult thing, isn't it really? Because we know how important it is for people to speak up and to challenge and to share their stories so that change will happen. But then we see on the other hand that people are afraid, as you say, there's a fear of retaliation or of people not being believed or it also being quite traumatic to relive and talk through what's happened to them.

Victoria Dale (15:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. it's, know, we need, we need people to speak out. We need particularly senior managers to go, actually, this is not okay. And if you have that one person that can speak out, call out, you know, senior manager, then I think that can help to encourage others to do so. Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (16:37)
Yeah, I think that's it's

so important for leadership to let people know that they will listen and that people will be heard and respected. Not just having the policy on a shelf, the HR department. Should we talk a little bit about what's coming up on October the 26th? So the changes to... No, no.

Victoria Dale (16:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, not that far away, is it? It's a Saturday

as well, comes into effect. know, is that right? Saturdays are 26. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (17:07)
the 26th of October, which is an unusual day to implement changes to employment legislation.

So can you tell us a little bit about what's happening, what's coming into effect on the 26th and why it's significant?

Victoria Dale (17:21)
Yeah, so it's requiring employers basically, you know, to take a more proactive approach when it comes to preventing sexual harassment. So preempting when sexual harassment is more likely to arise, you know, so it means sort of not just waiting until those incidents arise, which often as we know, can be too late, person might have left the organization, could be years down the line. It's actually, you know, one of the things is to carry out risk assessments, understand actually when.

Is sexual harassment more likely to arise in your organization? every business will be different. You'll have somewhere that's perhaps more like loan working or shift working patterns or, you know, nature of the business might be there might be more social events, you know, things like that. Just thinking actually when is it more likely to rise, particularly for example, in say like construction sites, for instance, know, where women, particularly women were subject to sexual harassment, likely to be exposed.

harassment and just getting employers to be proactive and put in policies and processes and ways of reporting that will help to be aware of, does sexual harassment look like, how can I identify it, what does the policy say, what are managers' and also actually how can I report it, promoting those channels of reporting, including anonymised channels as well.

which is really important because I think like you said, Andrea, before it's not just writing a policy and then putting it on the shelf or a file save as and putting it on the shared drive. It's got to be that ongoing and I'm kind of going on a bit but I think also as well is that it shouldn't just be left to one individual to make sure the organization is ready for the duty coming in.

Andrea Derbyshire (18:43)
Yeah.

Yeah,

so responsibility of every member of staff from the senior leadership team down to understand their role and responsibilities around new duties. So there's going to be a new emphasis on the prevention of sexual harassment where previously it was just around redress for what had happened.

Victoria Dale (19:10)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (19:28)
So what do you think the key things are that organizations need to be focusing on right now to make sure that they're ready for the changes?

Victoria Dale (19:36)
So I think, you know, there needs to be regular reminders and communication to managers particularly and to all employees about this duty coming in. What does it mean for you to be, you know, of communicate what is sexual harassment? The definition, what does it mean? What does that look like? as well, people about examples of where sexual harassment can occur. can be written, verbal, behavioral.

And obviously training is really important to make sure that managers, those in particular roles understand what their responsibility is when someone comes to them where they've been subject to sexual harassment, they're able to kind of deal with it in a sensitive and discreet and effective way and not just kind of leave it, brush it under the carpet and you understand the consequences. And obviously, as I before, a risk assessment is absolutely key. I'm hoping that those who are listening have already done.

The risk assessment, understand were sexual harassment more likely to arise? What policies do we need to update to ensure that people understand that the processes in place to report those incidents because they might not have existed before those ways of reporting? Yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (20:46)
Yeah, and I know that you posted an article recently, I think it might have been on LinkedIn this week, Victoria, where there was some survey that had been done to look at how organisations were for the changes coming into effect. And I think it was a really low percentage, 5 % that said that they were ready and were prepared. So why do you think that is?

Victoria Dale (20:51)
Yeah.

5%. Yeah.

question. So I think my view, my personal view is that all, but maybe some, feel perhaps that the policy as it is will address it. That's not the case. need to be, as you said, proactive, preempt when sexual harassment arises rather than leave it when it does arise. think also

Andrea Derbyshire (21:20)
Maybe.

Victoria Dale (21:29)
Some still think that, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen in our organization. We've never had any complaints before.

Andrea Derbyshire (21:36)
by burying the head in the sun that doesn't happen in our organisation.

Victoria Dale (21:38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah. I think there's a bit of that and you'll have some organizations where, you know, there'll be like maybe an office manager who's got some HR responsibility and perhaps they might give the excuse that they don't have the time and capacity to able to kind of do a full risk assessment. They maybe just update their policy, but I think confidence as well and knowledge, it might not be that internal.

Andrea Derbyshire (22:00)
Yeah.

Victoria Dale (22:08)
actually what's involved, time as well. I bet you that's probably used as an excuse. Yeah, what do you think?

Andrea Derbyshire (22:11)
Yeah.

Yeah,

maybe into some elements of internal capacity or as you say, assuming that their existing bullying and harassment policies are fit for purpose and not having a real grasp or understanding of what's changed and what additional duties and responsibilities organisations will have going forward maybe.

Victoria Dale (22:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think there's certainly been a lot of guidance, would say a lot of guidance, Equality and Human Rights Commission has produced really good guidance. It's got eight sections, I think, and some practical examples, which I think is one of their more shorter guidance than some of the guidance that they've produced. I wonder how much, don't think there's been much communication awareness.

Andrea Derbyshire (22:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Victoria Dale (23:01)
around the duty and all sort of publicity like campaigns and stuff, what I've seen.

Andrea Derbyshire (23:05)
Yeah, I found it interesting because I've posted a couple of on social media on LinkedIn and the Facebook group around the new duty for preventing sexual harassment and just haven't had the level of interest or response that you'd think would be getting at this point in time with it coming into effect on the 26th.

Victoria Dale (23:15)
Yeah. No. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

mean, you remember, I mean, this is like going way back, let get this right, talking about the Disability Discrimination Act, part two, the reasonable adjustment GC for service providers. I remember even on TV, there being a big campaign, but yeah, it's, should be something a bit more national because you'll have some businesses who they might use a legal firm that will kind of help advise them or run webinars.

Andrea Derbyshire (23:34)
Yeah.

Victoria Dale (23:51)
then you'll have like really small businesses who don't have those those networks or that that advice that yeah.

Andrea Derbyshire (23:57)
Hopefully we'll raise awareness with the podcast today and help.

Victoria Dale (23:59)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think

it's just, know, reassuring businesses and employers that, of all, highlighting that this is a very important duty, will save them money, time and talent, but actually, it's not as complex. It's very important, but it's, you know, we can kind of help them, guide them through making those steps.

it can come across as being really complicated but actually it's building into what they're already doing, making their processes stronger.

Andrea Derbyshire (24:24)
Yeah.

Yeah definitely. So for those organisations out there who were thinking where do we start, what would advice be the first step that they need to take to build a harassment free?

Victoria Dale (24:33)
Yeah.

Yeah, why?

Yeah, so think firstly, raising awareness about why are we doing this, getting people to really understand what is sexual harassment, what does that look like with practical examples, so a bit of ongoing communication and awareness reminders, particularly to managers, having those conversations, you know, doing the risk assessment, looking at the business and involving different parts of the business to do the assessment, understanding where it's likely to arise. That's probably a bit of a longer piece of work, but

Andrea Derbyshire (24:58)
Yeah.

Victoria Dale (25:11)
I think that ongoing communication, they might not have everything in place by Saturday, if they really just, you know, that risk assessment, do that communication, get people involved, really important start. also, you know, inviting people for their input. And one of the other key things as well as more ongoing is that evaluation.

Andrea Derbyshire (25:14)
See ya.

No.

Yeah.

Victoria Dale (25:34)
how effective is our communication campaign, how effective is our policy or new procedure? Are people aware using my employee engagement surveys?

Andrea Derbyshire (25:45)
Yeah, I think you make some really important points and I agree that communication is key and we need to start with raising awareness and then taking those practical steps to sure that the policies and procedures and practices are all for purpose. Also, engaging workforce in that work I think would be a positive step. For example, your staff networks, they may have some.

really good suggestions and ideas of how to make it work in your organisation.

Victoria Dale (26:14)
Yeah, absolutely.

Andrea Derbyshire (26:15)
Any other final points that you want to make, Victoria?

Victoria Dale (26:19)
guess really the final point is that employers need to recognise that duty to prevent sexual harassment doesn't just rest with HR. Yes, HR is responsible for developing, updating, communicating your HR policies, but actually everyone has a role to play from leaders to managers to everyone basically to understand actually what is their responsibility.

Andrea Derbyshire (26:31)
Absolutely. Yeah.

I agree, that's a really, really important point. Thank you, Victoria. so that's it for today's episode. I hope you found this discussion on preventing sexual harassment in the workplace helpful. Remember, it's about creating a culture of respect and openness where every member of staff feels that they're valued, safe and supported in work. And we can all contribute to a workplace that's free from harassment. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to hit subscribe.

So you don't miss future discussions on all things human resources, equality, diversity and inclusion and creating the inclusive edge and positive workplace cultures. you'd like to join as a guest on the podcast or you have a topic that you'd like us to cover in a future episode, just drop me a message. I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much, Victoria, for appearing as a guest on the today.

your host Andrea Derbyshire and I look forward to continuing the journey with you. Until next time, stay focused, stay on the inclusive edge and keep building a positive workplace culture. Thank you for listening.

Victoria Dale (27:41)
Thank you.